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Post by BillCartwright on Apr 25, 2006 16:41:29 GMT -5
I'm slowly getting caught up from going after turkey for 11 straight days and found in the mail that my buck had been officially accepted. With the letter and certificate was their spring newsletter.
As I sat last night reading through it, and absorbing what some of the officers wrote and commented in some of their columns, it was clear that I had no idea that the clubs beliefs were so strong and deep. I was a bit surprised to find that there are only 7,000+ members in the club. Now there are legions of associate members such as myself, but it seems attaining official membership is quite tough regardless of harvested animals, years as an associate, etc. I found myself reading several of the columns 2 or 3 times to make sure I was digesting what was in front of me clearly.
I know boman is, but is there anyone else here that is an associate member who receives their newsletter and so forth? I will post up tomorrow on a couple of the columns I'm talking about to see what comments everyone might have.
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Post by ncboman on Apr 25, 2006 23:51:47 GMT -5
Kinda kills all the negative comments we read on forums about the club once you find out the real deal. ;D You don't just wake up one day and decide to become a regular member of the P&Y Club. I wonder if I'll live long enough to make it.  |
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Post by eshoremd on Apr 26, 2006 7:25:04 GMT -5
Kinda kills all the negative comments we read on forums about the club once you find out the real deal. ;D You don't just wake up one day and decide to become a regular member of the P&Y Club. I wonder if I'll live long enough to make it. i wonder too. you did just get one more year older  happy birthday buddy!  |
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Post by ncboman on Apr 26, 2006 9:55:15 GMT -5
I truely regret not becoming an associate member sooner. I would liken being a P&Y member to having a degree in bowhunting and suggest any qualified bowhunter join asap. Length of membership is required for advancement. In the newsletters, books, and resulting friendships I have found keys that gave my bowhunting knowledge a quantum leap and envoked a passion for learning and experiencing more. Also I was privilaged early on to hunt with two senior members of the club. (For those that don't know, senior members of the P&Y Club are rare birds indeed and are of the highest caliber bowhunters that exist. To even qualify for senior membership is a bowhunting achievement few can accomplish.) To this day I am still drawing from the excellence of character I saw in those two guys and can only hope I learn to impress other bowhunters half as much as I was impressed. For me at least, I found the club brings to life the ideals of character, bowhunting knowledge, and conservation that I hold near to heart.  |
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Post by BillCartwright on May 3, 2006 12:02:39 GMT -5
Okay, I finally found the time to comment further on this. This is in no way, shape or form a crossbow debate, so don't make it that.
In reading my materials from the P&Y club, it became very apparent that the P&Y club stands alone in its ethics and stance on the issues we deal with today in regards to our passion of bow hunting.
Before going on, let me make a couple comments about my own views. I'm not someone that thinks we as hunters should be divided. I will fall back on the old "UNITED we STAND, Divided we Fall" mentality. I think it is going to take everyone to fight for our hunting rights in the future, whether I shoot a recurve, compound, crossbow, rifle, muzzleloaders or throw a stick. Having said that, it does not make me a crossbow advocate nor should you think so. I think they have their place, but not necessarily amongst the entire archery season as we now have it in Kentucky. I see nothing wrong with having a special season, but should be limited.
The P&Y club has this issue as archery vs. crossbow industry fight when that is not necessarily the case in my opinion. Point in hand, many archery manufacturers produce crossbows. This can't be argued. Is the P&Y club going to remove or eliminate accepting animals taken with equipment manufactured by these companies? I do agree that the crossbow is just an example of a greater problem where archery hunters have seen their hunting seasons chopped away by the addition of muzzleloader seasons and expansion of firearms seasons. But I have to ask myself is this a problem? Expanded hunting opportunities=increased season lengths, in some cases increased bag limits and so forth. I use a muzzleloader, I also hunt with a rifle from time to time, and therefore I see both sides of the fence. The P&Y club sees most archery seasons in all states as 'special', due to laws passed years ago by governments to expand hunting opportunities and to increase the participation in hunting altogether, which the P&Y club played a part in.
The P&Y club has been very strategic in its stance about various issues, some that I only realized during my reading. Those heading up the club now have a greater challenge today than any other time. Their job is to uphold and keep the integrity the club was built and started from intact. Much of this is done with resolutions, such as starting a separate book for traditional kills, any animal registered using a let-off greater than 65% is noted with an 'asterisk', exclusion of using electronics, etc.
In summary, I feel that the P&Y club is or will be fighting similar battles within itself in the short future. By a vote of 2 to 1, the allowance of recording animals taken by bows with let-off percentages greater than 65% was passed 3 years ago. Was this a loss for the club or a win for the bow hunter? The same deal with the crossbow issue. Is the P&Y club getting a black eye from its view and stance on the subject? I think so because to some degree we as hunters are being divided. Same thing is happening within the club, bowhunters are divided.
Bow hunting is my passion and hope it can remain that way for years to come. I accomplished something that I wanted to do, harvest a P&Y class buck with my bow by the time my kids got to an age where dad's hunting would be less and turn into lessons of passing it on. I hunt ethically, I hunt hard and I hunt every chance I get.
During the time I spent reading the materials sent to me, I had this weird feeling I was on the outside looking in. After much thought, I came to realize that the club views a bow hunter and hunter separately. It seems that I am just a hunter that chooses to hunt with a bow.
I'm headed out west for a week to chase Merriams with my bow. I will check back in next week to see where this thread has gone.
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Post by Twanger on May 3, 2006 13:33:08 GMT -5
Bill - Interesting thoughts. All clubs face the classic delimma - the choice between 'sticking to your guns' or 'changing with the times.' This delimma is certainly not unique to P&Y.
IMHO, a club must retain it's core values while changing with the times, least it become irrelevant. To me, core values don't reflect specifics. Examples of specifics are: bow let-off, what weapons are in vogue this decade, lighted pins, or how big should the antlers be to 'get in.' To me, core values are more along the lines of ethics, respect for game, game management philosophy, and conservation beliefs. These things transcend what is trendy now and obsolete tomorrow.
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Post by BillCartwright on May 3, 2006 15:42:42 GMT -5
Twanger,
I don't disagree. I think the club stuck to its core values for as long as they could and succomb to pressure of the archery industry and the hunters of today on some of their recent changes.
Hopefully I'm not offending anyone here, but the club seems much like the old timer. He grew up doing something a certain way, he is set in his ways and not willing to change. The club has opened up to some change, but the core mentality is there which supports the club's view.
Again, "United we Stand, Divided we Fall" is what I see.
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Post by freedomrules3 on May 3, 2006 21:24:25 GMT -5
I see it a little differently myself. i like the rules they have the way they are, will they have to change eventually, i sure hope not. they arent telling anyone they can't hunt with any weapon of choice, they just wont accept it if it isnt shot according to their rules. why should they bend their rules to accomodate a crossbow hunter? fact is they shouldnt have to and it really shouldnt be an issue at all. if you want a P&Y book buck then simply use the weapon they desire you too. if you choose to hunt with a crossbow, you make the choice and shouldnt expect them to change just for you. i respect their viewpoint on that. i personally see crossbows as a pain just like early muzzle season has become. do i think if they changed their rules everyone would switch over not a bit, some may but most wouldnt. as much as i would love to get a book buck, its really meaningless in the big scheme of things to me. i hunt to enjoy myself and most importantly to relieve stress from the "real" world . handicaps aside , i see crossbow hunters as a norm in todays world...looking for the easy way. they say they dont have the time to practice a compound but dont realize they should practice the cb just as much. its really not that hard to go out once or twice a week and shoot. i truly believe the crossbow has its place and to me that is a limited season like we have here in MD. (oct 1-15 and jan15-31) it gives both bow hunters enough time to take a few deer a year. crossbows are obviously easier than a compound or trad bow and require no form just aim and shoot.at least with a limited season , i know when i am in competition or have to worry about a cb shooter. i agree 100% with the P&Y clubs views and hope they never accept cb deer. maybe another club is needed to fil the void, but changing this club isnt the answer at all.in closing i'm not against cb's but believe they have a time and a place and it isnt throughout the entire archery season imo. if they would change their rules and accept them, i see that as a slap in the face to the guy that does spend the 200 hours a year to become a killing machine with his compound or trad bow. i also believe many many hunters with the handicap permit are frankly full of shit . "i cant pull a 80% letoff bow and hold it ( 60 lb bow +12 measley pounds) yet they have no problem pulling back that 150 lb no letoff crossbow . |
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Post by campkingmd on May 4, 2006 12:55:11 GMT -5
I am a member, have been since 1996, I believe in what they stand for, I also believe in Unity between hunters. With out the PY and BC we would have no foundation to go by
Every aspects of life has pioneers that set ,rules laws, standards , ethics and a way in wich to govern a so called body or community. Everything must change with times deciding what and when to change is the tough part. I think as a whole they have been instromental in classifying all the species that we choose to hunt, as well as BC. I am also a member of the NRA i don't always agree on all the issues they stand for but like PY as a whole I think they make a difference.
JMO
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Post by BillCartwright on May 9, 2006 15:22:48 GMT -5
i sure hope not. they arent telling anyone they can't hunt with any weapon of choice Rick, That is part of my problem, the stance is there is no place in the archery season for x-bows, which tends to not support a unity between hunters as Campkingmd referred to. The clubs stance forms a us against them which goes back to me saying, "United we Stand, Divided we Fall." I don't think an x-bow buck should make it into the P&Y club books. As you said, I think x-bows have their place. P&Y stance is they do not belong during the archery season. Who am I to tell another hunter he should not use a crossbow? Personally I don't care. Nothing is being taken away from me. I did not lose 2 weeks of archery hunting because a crossbow season was added. P&Y views crossbows being allowed during archery season as a loss. |
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Post by ncboman on May 9, 2006 16:18:03 GMT -5
so do I. Bill, if MLs were added during archery season, would you see it as a loss? Seems everyone wants to go staright to the xgun issue instead of looking at all the other aspects of the P&Y Club. and I thought this thread was going to be about the difficult requirements to be eligible for regular membership.  |
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Post by Twanger on May 9, 2006 16:45:40 GMT -5
Yeah, for some reason it always degrades into a cross-bow fight ... the latest heresy. THe last heresy was let-off's greater than 65%. Used to be compounds vs. recurves - only took 'em 30 years to get over that hump.  The only thing slower to change is the Catholic Church - still working those pesky 14th century issues. ;D Me - I just want to hunt. |
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Post by BillCartwright on May 9, 2006 17:04:39 GMT -5
boman, here in Kentucky there are 11 days that have become muzzleloader days during the archery season, and no I did not see it as a loss. The state did not take 11 days away from me, they added 11 for the hunter that chooses to hunt with a muzzleloader.
This thread was not a archery vs. x-bow thread, nor should it become that. It was more about the views of the club. The x-bow view is just one of the more recent stances the club took, pitting the archery industry vs. the crossbow industry, which in many avenues is the same.
As I see it, I will never be voted a member regardless of meeting their requirements. If the likes of Judy Kovar, among others are still awaiting acceptance, Bill never will be regardless of view, years as a member or bowhunting accomplishments. Yet....
I noticed Warren Strickland was becoming a new officer. Isn't he the black man of BassPro prostaff fame? If so, I know I've seen him hunt behind a high fence in Texas........ I would not think the club supported that based on their fair chase ethics......?.. so how does the club allow/justify him becoming an officer?
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Post by ncboman on May 9, 2006 23:10:09 GMT -5
oh boy. Frankly, I am somewhat taken aback by Bill's position, obviously the position of a gun hunter that takes advantage of the bow only seasons rather than primarily a bowhunter that may gun hunt on occasion. I guess we should look at the mission of the P&Y Club. "Dedicated to the Protection of Our Bowhunting Heritage and North America's Wildlife."Pretty simple. It's about protecting bowhunting and wildlife. The above pretty much proves what I have posted elsewhere about how one infringement leads to another. Sure the gunhunter sees no loss by taking away from the archery season. I as a bowhunter would see no loss in doing away with deer gunseasons in favor of a continuous bow only season as well. I feel like bowhunters are the minority as deer hunting goes and the majority seems to be keen on taking as much from the bowseason as is possible. I also feel that anyone that stands up and says enough is accused of being selfish, greedy, selfcentered, dividing the hunting populace, terrorism, being stupid, old fashioned, you name it, bowhunters are under attack and it's from the very ones that cry about division in the ranks doing the dividing. per you xbow insert, I'm not addressing that now as my cup is already over running with insult, lies, and censored/adultered posts on another site and I tire of it for now. reference to beating up bowhunters; dividing the fieldThe competition to get to regular member status is steep for sure. Some have been on the waiting list since the early 70s but others get accepted in 10yrs or less. With regular membership limited to 200 members and senior membership qualifications rather steep, it speaks to the dedication of the individual in preserving and promoting bowhunting to get to regular membership status. I don't know what you've seen Dr Strickland doing but you are the first I've seen attempt to impune his integrity. His dedication to bowhunting and to the P&Y Club fair chase standards are without question in my mind. In light of this thread as well as other factors I support the P&Y Club's relatively new position regarding bowhunting; ie, Bowhunting as we know it today cannot survive without the protection of special seasons designed for it's use.This thread clearly shows why. Bowhunting as we have known it is under attack and it isn't the antihunter doing the attacking.  |
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Post by BillCartwright on May 10, 2006 9:49:21 GMT -5
boman, my position is that of a hunter. I have not hunted with a gun in several years and even then it has been while afield with my young sons, but would hunt with one if I chose as I know you do from time to time.
I know what the club's mission statements are.
I will use Kentucky as an example because it is what I know. When the state proposed the 2 day October Muzzleloader season then passed, I did not lose 2 days of hunting. You view it as an infringement upon archery season as you wrote in your last reply. What this added Muzzleloader season did was allow the opportunity for Archery season to open nearly a month earlier than ever before. Similar situation with muzzleloader season lengthened in December. The state lengthened archery season by a full 3 weeks into January. Again, as I've stated before as a bowhunter I did not lose anything. If anything as a bowhunter I gained. We've seen archery opportunities expand by 6-7 weeks while allowing other hunters more opportunity as well. I will be honest, it is hard for me to see this as a problem as the club does.
I'm not out to attack anyone's integrity. I purely made a comment about the clubs fair chase ethics and that someone was being appointed a position who has hunted high fences. Although huge, the King Ranch is high fenced and he hunts there regularly and writes articles about it, airs the hunts on hunting shows, etc. I'm not asking you to question the club. I am a member and will continue to be because it supports much of what I believe, but there is division among the ranks. I had to question the appointment because the first thing that came to my mind was, "WTF, This guy hunts behind high fences?"
If you think I'm attacking bowhunting, you are incorrect. I started this post to hear others views about the club. As a new associate member, I find there to be a lot of division in the ranks and was quite surprised, or should I say SHOCKED to see the club appoint someone who has hunted behind a high fence. That is all and the number 1 reason behind this post. This isn't a crossbow thread at all and can be dropped from the discussion.
Boman, not long ago you and I were a threat to the club and "the Protection of Our Bowhunting Heritage and North America's Wildlife" because we chose to hunt with compound bows. Do you not agree with this is true? Because the clubs mission once viewed us 'compound' hunters as a threat to their special seasons.
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happy birthday buddy! 
