Culling Bucks .. Is It A Waste Of a Tag ?

[freedomrules3]

another interesting article from HS

Hunter’s Specialties is a sponsor of the Quality Deer Management Association (QDMA) in Bogart, Georgia. Brian Murphy, QDMA executive director, explains that, “A bull elk will round up a whole herd of cows and have perhaps 10 cows in his harem. When each of these cows comes into heat, the bull elk will breed her and then eventually all 10. So, in an elk herd, a single dominant bull will have a much greater impact on the genetics of the herd than a dominant whitetail will.”

Murphy reports that what scientists have learned about the way deer breed means good news and bad news. A hunter can’t detrimentally impact a deer herd since so many different bucks contribute to that genetic gene pool. Even if someone bags the wrong buck, or there’s an over-harvest of bucks, still so many bucks will contribute to the gene pool that a herd won’t have a great number of inferior bucks. But people who dream of manipulating the genetics of a deer herd by harvesting poorly-antlered bucks more than likely can’t impact a herd, especially one on small acreages.

“Shooting cull bucks has no statistical chance of making a difference in the quality of your deer herd,” Murphy says. “Whether you should or shouldn’t harvest cull bucks is debatable. That cull buck is taking up space and eating groceries and will breed, so I guess you still should take it. But don’t believe that you’re changing the genetic structure of your deer herd dramatically if you harvest cull white-tailed bucks. Many times malformed antlers have nothing at all to do with genetics.”


Murphy mentions an ongoing study on 10,000 acres on the King Ranch in Texas, conducted by Dr. Mickey Hellickson, chief wildlife biologist on the King Ranch. Over a 6-year period, using hunters on the ground and shooters from helicopters, this study removed every single cull buck found on those 10,000 acres.

“After six years of absolutely removing every low-quality buck that could be located, the average-age-class buck on the study area was actually smaller than the bucks in the surrounding control areas,” Murphy comments. “They found at the King Ranch that they had zero effect and probably had had a negative effect when they intensively harvested what they would consider cull bucks. This culling program on 10,000 acres was much-more intense than any hunting club could ever duplicate. There were no positive effects that could be shown on a deer herd in the wild by culling inferior bucks.”

[ncboman]

keep in mind the term 'cull buck' originated in Texas and has a dual meaning. To the uninformed, a cull buck is one undesirable to be left in a breeding herd.

The real meaning is a buck that will not bring top dollar from the hunter. Whenever money and hunting mix, the truth is the first victim, just like war.

[txm]

Culling of deer both bucks and does for most deer managers are done for several reasons.
1. Removal of surplus deer
2. Removal of deer that are in decline either from age or other health problems.
These are the most common reasons for culling.
There has been a few culling tests on Kerr Wildlife Management Area and on the King Ranch to study the effect on the genetics of the population.
These studies show that it is not very effective as to genetic manipulation for Whitetails.
If Whitetail were like elk and Fallow that form groups with a dominate buck doing the breeding genetic culling would work.
During the past thirty six I have one ranch where we did manage to change the genetics as to antler development and it took twenty two years, a high fence and intensive culling to accomplish noticeable improvement .

The culling that NC mentions is not actually culling.
We divide mature bucks into two basic categories.
Trophy bucks and management bucks.
Management bucks are deer that have reached there potential and still don’t classify as a top trophy animal.
These deer are usually 3.5 -4.5 years old and 8 points
.They can be more than eight with some factor that keeps them out of the most desired group
These deer usually score110 and up to 150 on the B.C. scoring system
Trophy bucks on most ranches are deer that are in the top 5-10% as to desired antler development and are usually 5.5 + in age.
These are the most expensive deer to kill.
I advise most hunters to go for the management bucks in that they are better than most will ever kill and usually cost less than half of what a trophy buck will cost.
Management bucks are by far the most numerous mature bucks on most well managed ranches.

[ncboman]

Sorry for my tongue in cheek sarcasim. I kinda dislike farm or ranch terms and methods applied to wildlife. Seems like some of these ranches had just as well round the herd up and give them shots and plastic ear tags like cattle. Not a whole lot of difference in my eyes as the rancher or management specialist is playing God with micromanaged animals.

The methods have spurred an entirely different attitude and perspective of deer in some arenas than I'm comfortable with. These herds are ranch captive deer for the most part yet we see the terms applied to wild herds also and I think that gives a message that isn't actually realistic.

Take a place like Md for instance and start using terms like cull bucks on wild herds and I get a chuckle. Without knowing every buck in a herd I think it's impossible to call any individual a cull buck. We use to call them lesser bucks if a buck wasn't mature or had antler features that made other bucks more desirable. I've killed a whole bunch of lesser bucks but I've never killed a cull buck in my life.

I understand the terms. Now the buzzword is management bucks. It's fine for ranches designed for one purpose ultimately but I don't hunt those places and likely never will.

I have a similar view of trailcams snapping pics of every deer in the woods. I guess it's possible to take a scrapbook to the deer stand so every buck that shows up could be referenced to see it's position in the known local herd. I can see where many get enthused in this area and I can see how it's kind of a fun game but it really doesn't go to the heart of the kind of hunting I was brought up into.

I look at a deer hunt kinda like a kid looks at xmas morning. I feel like I'm going to get something good but I have no idea what it is or how good it will be. What if you could look at a pic of every single buck in the area you're going to hunt and none of them were really what you want to kill?

Isn't it better to be on stand and have no clue?

[txm]

NC
I understand your position and am in no way offended.
I have managed high fenced ranches in a few cases and it is not my preferred method of producing quality deer. (They paid me well)
Most of my carrier has been with totally free range animals with no supplemental feeding.
At this time I am winding down due to health problems and am working only with a family group that owns three ranches in three different counties.
The father’s ranch is 17,000 acres, one son has 12,000 and the other son has 9,000.
Two of the ranches have both Mule Deer and Whitetails.
My method is to keep the deer under carrying capacity, keep the buck /doe ratio as close to 1:2 as possible and improve the natural food supply.
These ranchers don’t charge by the size of the buck, only a trespass fee and the hunters can kill any two bucks that they can and choose to.
I do require that they kill two does for each buck taken.
The hunters for the most part have never seen the buck until they are hunting.
I know many of them on sight due to spending many hours and days on the ranches.
I have made it a policy to never hunt a trophy on land that I manage.
I found many years ago that it can cause resentment when I kill something better than the paying hunter kills.
They pay me to improve them, not to kill them.
I haven’t hunted for a trophy in over twenty years and only kill deer that need to be out of the herd.
My pleasure hunting is now guiding my wife, kids and grandkids and I get more pleasure from that than any deer that I have ever shot.

[ncboman]

Based on that post alone, one could deduct that managing deer ranches may have soured for you what many of us hunt for.

Nothing wrong at all in your current interests but not trophy hunting in 20yrs tells me something. I've been all over south Texas and seen the ranch operations there. While not as informed as you obviously are, I saw it as a totally different type of deal than I prefer and I left it without remorse.

[freedomrules3]

cull bucks ,undesirables and lesser bucks are all the same to me, tomato tomatoe . i do know that from now on i'll not pay nearly as much attention to worrying about them being around or not being around. i've seen some old bucks with really inferior horns , i've always thought it best if they were removed before breeding . thinking in a different mindset now tells me just because he is inferior doesnt mean he wont have some good genes to him.

trailcams to me are just a newfound funsy thing. i can see where they could come in handy though since my time is limited to some extent (although i spend tons of time afield). if i could (which would be hard) get pics of all the bucks in an area and see none i want , wouldnt it make sense not to waste precious time hunting there? i also think it would be pretty hard and expensive to try and take pics of all the deer in a certain area. that doesnt even include deer movement in and out of an area. i can see cameras as a sideline and eventually just another tool . so if i get a pic of say a 190 " buck , you wouldnt be interested in knowing where i got the picture at ?

i see the use of feeders as being much worse than the use of cameras myself. just doesnt seem very sportsmanlike to feed your pets then shoot em . i know they will all say big bucks dont come to feeders lol, but does do and big bucks come to does . feeders i'm just not sure about , i think they are a sign of laziness and the loss of the grassroots style hunting i'm used to. cameras are also somewhat off base with what i'm used to but it is fun to look at the pics .
kinda got off track oops

[txm]

NC
You probably know Texas is a very diverse state and SO. Texas gets a large amount of the publicity and criticism...
I have managed some in the brush country of SO. Texas ;however most of my work has been done in the semi desert to desert areas of far south west Texas and in north west and north central parts of the state.
These areas are made up of large to very large ranches with fairly low deer populations in comparison.
Almost no high fences in these areas.
These ranches would remind most folks of the eastern side of Wyoming, S.W. Colorado or the desert areas or Arizona.
Deer populations range from one deer per 50 acres to one deer per 100 acres.
Few large trees and for sure none with straight trunks.
Your type of tree stand is out of the question.
As far as trophy hunting goes I would still shoot one that was better than one that I have already taken, but over the years I have killed so darn many that just killing another buck has little interest for me.
I have hunted all of my 65 years and still enjoy it.
For many years I hunted with a bow and enjoyed the challenge, but injuries made it impossible to pull a bow and I had to give that up.
I still enjoy hunting different areas and taking a good representative buck from each area.
I have hunted 14 states and Canada and Mexico and enjoyed the different methods used in each area.(except running them with dogs)
A trophy to me now is related to the hunt and the difficulty in getting the animal.
Score means very little to me any longer.
I have great respect for dedicated hunters and in particular the ones that can get nice buck in areas where there are not many and where they are hunted hard.
My main interest has always been in studying the wildlife and learning everything that I can about it.
I am a Zoologist and Biologist first
I spend about thirty hours of study for each hour of hunting.
freedomrules3
Feeders are a good tool in helping us kill enough does.
I records show that about 10%of the larger bucks are killed near the feeders.
Trail cams are also a good tool in helping us see the very nocternal deer that are not seen during the day.
We get pictures of many big bucks after dark at feeders, that are never seen during daylight.

[ncboman]

Per the cams, I can see where they would be fun. Anything to do in the deer woods is kinda fun.

But...

I already know there is not one 190 inch buck in the county where I live.

But...

I also know of several counties where I'd be surprized if the weren't at least one 190 buck.

I thrive on the feeling I get when I'm hunting a place and it's like, I knew there are suppose to be big bucks here ...

But ...

GOOD GRIEF!!!